Amen Steven, could not agree more. Seems they are trying to create a separate class for them selves.

Steven -

It sounds almost certain that you are talking about LTC Victor Fehrenbach, so let’s get some facts straight. The source of the problem is not that he “opened his big mouth.” He attempted to keep his private life private, just as you advocate. It doesn’t work. Someone informed his superiors. (New York Times, et al. 2nd last paragraph here):

http://preview.tinyurl.com/nure5b

Lt Col Fehrenbach was notified about the beginning of his investigation back in May of 2008. He STILL kept his mouth shut, until about a year later. For the details and his reasoning, and a story of this man’s honorable career (including recognition for heroism) see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NZDRjEKwtQ

It’s just bad policy (and bad economics) to get rid of such a highly skilled serviceman. But wait, the insanity doesn’t stop there. Here’s another guy who tried to keep his mouth shut:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14052513/

The US military has voluntarily shed itself of 59 Arabic and 9 Farsi linguists because of don’t ask/don’t tell. We Americans are not exactly famous for our foreign language skills in general. Ask ANYONE (maybe a Polish soldier?) who has deployed and they will tell you how precious, scarce, and life-saving these language skills are. Not only does “don’t ask/don’t tell” not work, it is reckless.

Speaking generally now, not just about sexual orientation, when people try to conceal things they slip up, however briefly. It’s just a matter of time and someone observant enough to notice. Policy based on asking someone to lie is just not sound. It puts people’s careers and well-being at risk by someone looking for such lies and who has an axe to grind.

I worked for (not enlisted in) the US military for years. I know first-hand that there are many gay servicemen. Why? Because communication is not limited to the verbal, no matter how hard we try to conceal it. It’s just that if you want something not to be true, you’re probably less likely to notice it.

Another angle for those who think of these issues as liberal encroachment upon conservative values. 460 of the Fortune 500*
companies have included gays in their non-discrimination policies. There is no legal requirement to do this.

So why do they? Because businesses make more money when their employees get along with each other (not always the same thing as like or admire each other.) Apparently big business sees this as an effective way to try to harmonize the work force. Even Wal-Mart, famous for squeezing blood from a turnip, is on board.

True they probably get a bit of good publicity for a brief time, but most of the public probably forgets about this pretty quickly.

* – (sorry, US data from 2005 and I couldn’t find comparable metric for Europe)

If they can do the work that is what a corporation needs. Regardless of all the other factors. Most corporations evaluate personnel on how they perform on the job.

Paweł: ‘You should be tolerant and don’t mind whether someone is gay, bi, queer or straight. ‘

To tolerate is to bear with it somehow. To never mind would be to either ignore or accept. Another example of lefties changing the meaning of words to play with minds. Then goes ‘marriage’, then probably ‘man’, ‘woman’, ‘child’, ‘love’. Anything to suit your current wishes better.

I wonder if firing gays from the army is a Western attitude towards sex or just Army distrust towards Lefties? Do people get fired from the Wojsko Polskie? I know that my sister’s teacher did not get fired, even though everyone knew that the best way to get a good grade was to come in a mini skirt to class.

Ania -

Being gay does not automatically mean leftist views.

And I don’t think the opposition to gays in the military can be defined as a Western attitude toward sex, since gays can serve openly in the militaries of the UK, Australia, Israel, the Netherlands and others. I found it interesting that Russia established it’s ban in 2003.

I meant to say “….Western attitude toward sex or sexuality”

I already said what I thought. Further discussion is meaningless, I won’t change my mind, and neither will you.

I’m not getting anything from this discussion. Like Ania, whom I’d really advise to read something written from a left wing perspective, than just follow neo-fascist Internet fora. Maybe then we’d have something to talk about?

Have a nice weekend everyone, regardless of your sexual orientation or gender identity.

I had a boss that was gay I think. Everyone just knew. Like Pawel said before, with some guys you can just tell. The thing is, I really, really liked this boss, he took the time to develop me, and promoted me, and taught me how to lead and motivate a team. What I admired the most about him was his professionalizm. He applied the don,t ask don,t tell policy to us straighties as you call us Pawel, also. That is to say he did not put up with any talk of wife,s, girlfriend,s, or even kids at work. We just do not reveal our sexual orientation at work. And I liked it. If you are out dating a co/worker or talking to friends from work, fine, but he did not want to ever hear us discussing anything but earning profit for the company at work. I like it, don,t ask, don,t tell, that goes for us straighties too. Fair is fair.

DC, I,m sorry but if someone informed his superiors, than that someone knew he was gay, and therefore his private life was not kept private enough. I wouldn,t be suprized if it was a bitter ex that he had dumped that made the call to his boss. Very sad, but he knew the rules when he signed up to join the US Airforce.

Scatts< Pawel is right, we have ground this down to dust. What else have you got? You have a talent for stirring it up, can,t wait for the next piece….

Ania comes from a leftist family, with a Mother from ZMS, so knows quite a bit about how the Left and Liberals party. I’ve found Fronda quite refreshing and novel only this year. I’m amazed at the whole new world – all that havoc I can wreak on forums, hehe. I plan on buying a beret, but can’t decide on the colour.

You go Scott!

Steven, I lost track of this comment thread some time ago but I’ll do my best to come up with something new! :)

Two views on a relevant article from this weekend:

The Church must begin to think in terms of the “sacrament of relationships” rather than the sacrament of marriage, the head of a leading Catholic marriage agency has said.

http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=14623

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/articles/a0000547.shtml

Ania,

Yess…. the unique freshness of Fronda… may only be compared to novelty and freshness of pickled shrimp.

Having mother at ZMS doesn’t mean you’re up to day with leftist thinkers of 20th century. I’d reccomend John Storey’s “Cultural Theory And Popular Culture” for starters.

I think that in the argument between Island and Michael both are right, and wrong a bit, lol. Poles are fine with sexuality, on the cultural level, perhaps, even more than Brits. However, Poles draw the line just before the intimate level. So you can be exposed to anonymous sex everywhere around, but your own sex is private. People can make it out in the street, but the normal thing to do is to look away, while parades assume watching. There are things that to Poles are normal while to Brits are licentious, and then there are some that are funny to Brits and vulgar to Poles.

I’m not going to discuss what’s normal or not. That’s moot. What I’m going to say is that gays won’t get any rights here unless they change their ways. Pawel says that protests won them (and other people) rights in the past, but where? Seriously, did ever any manifestation against the Polish nation bring any good to anyone?

I think I remember some polls some years ago that were ca 60%. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was even less some 20 years ago. Just like the opposition to abortion steadily grows in spite, or to spite, the feminists.

Marches, activists – to Poles you just behave like communists, so that’s how they see you. Keep offending the people’s beliefs, calling them ‘backward’, and repeating all those slogans about liberals and European kind of thinking, and see where we are in 20 years from now.

Solidarność won thanks to strikes, but those were 38 million people against a minority, and not the other way around. How can one grow up in this country and not know that Poles always strike back when they are attacked? Poles don’t have to change, so they won’t. They might do it out of good will, but you don’t leave them room for that.

It’s quite naïve to expect that RC will change its politics. It doesn’t pay. The Churches in the West that showed relaxed attitudes lost out. People want the Church to be an alternative, and Poles will be even harder on you if you force them to defend the Church. Why should they site against their own convictions in support of something they don’t even care about?

Drop the word ‘marriage’. To Poles ‘marriage’ is synonymous with ‘matrimony’. Civil union is quite likely in my opinion, providing people behave reasonably. But not if you bring adoption in the same breath.

Adoption is an entirely different issue, and not only in reference to gays. There’s no such a problem like a shortage of married couples wanting to adopt kids. On the contrary, it’s very difficult to be allowed to adopt, even if you’re in a heterosexual Catholic marriage and both you and your spouse earn a lot of money. The government in Poland has quite a lot to say in reference to kids. No home schooling here or other such things. Parents don’t get to decide about everything, and the government thinks it might be better for the kid to stay in an orphanage.

Even if the general attitude to gays changes there still will remain the attitude to families, and then homosexual women will have much more chances than men. The Polish family is the most matriarchal institution in the world, and 99% of judges in the family courts are women anyway. If a biological father cannot be granted the care of his kids, even if the mother is irresponsible, don’t expect that two unrelated men will.

It really makes no sense to bring Western practices here. In the past women in the West weren’t allowed to raise their kids in case of divorce. Children belonged to fathers. There was no such an issue here. Kids are the domain of Mother Pole, and women won’t give up their rights lightly.

Sylwia, wondering if the Brits who want to marry a Pole ever wondered how it is to get divorced here. :P

Sylvia,

Finally something interesting. I wouldn’t agree with anything you say but it’s interesting:)

The way you put homosexuality and the Polish Nation as opposites… could Agnieszka Graff be right in her “Rykoszetem: rzecz o płci i narodzie”?… I am the Polish Nation too, just as you are. How could I oppose myself?:P I oppose stupid ideas some of my compatriots have. Right-wingness and petit-bourgeois are not genetically Polish.

You then go comparing (again – intertesting) homosexuality to communism. I am sure you would be able to explain how you draw the connection…

But if your logic is
1. Poles reject communism (A # B)
2. Poles reject homosexuality (A # C)
3. Then B = C? Homosexuality equals communism?:)

Then it’s kinda weak.

Especially that communism is an ideology and practice, while homosexuality is a persons quality:) So it’s like comparing apples to VCRs.

And if you think that communism was did not have ANY support among the Poles you are wrong. Many people did support it. People are not all the same. Within my family there were hard-commies and anti-communists arguing on every imieniny. My grandmother still keeps her communist medals, even though she doesn’t get a bonus pension for them any more;)

Sorry, Pawel. You didn’t understand a word.

I didn’t put homosexuality and the Polish nation as opposites. You do. If you go on demonstrating against them, you put them at the opposite side whether they wish it or not.

I didn’t compare homosexuality to communism. I compared your campaigning methods, that happen to be similar. Haven’t you ever seen communist parades?

No, not everyone was against communism, but 90% of Poles were. Gay adoption is opposed by 87%, and you think you’ll win by offending them. I just meant to point out to the lack of logic, but I’m sure you know better.

Sylvia,

OMG I would LOVE to see Stalin in drag, Brezhnev and Honecker kissing and waving rainbow flags… effeminate miners and farmers holding hands:) Rosa Luxembours with moustache… That would be so fun to watch such a communist parade! :) You right-wingers sometimes do have the funniest ideas!

Sylvia darling, I’ve never seen any gay activist claim they are against the Polish nation. It is people like you, who claim that being gay, or having certain politicical ideas – excludes from being Polish. It is you, who says gay rights are against the Polish nation. I told you: WE ARE POLISH NATION. Whether you like it or not. You are gainst the rights of a part of Polish Nation.
And I think you are wrong. I think Polish nation and gay rights merge quite well. And that in 30 years people like you, just like conservatives in the UK or Sweden, will understand that.

Pawel, first of all, as a fellow Pole, do me the favour and spell my name properly. Second, don’t call me a right-winger, since I haven’t even commented on my political views or my opinions in reference to homosexuality or gay relationship. I don’t call you anything. Third, don’t darling me.

Can you see the difference between one’s being gay, hetero or whatever, and one’s way of campaigning? Do you really think that if you’re gay anything you do is above critique, or is there a slight possibility that even gays can do things that are seen by others as an attack, without reasons linked to sexuality? Or perhaps I imagined the respective 75% and 87% against you, and, as you say, I am wrong, and the Polish nation and gay rights merge quite well?

You are not the Polish nation. You are only a small percent of it, and unless you campaign in a way that shows respect to the majority you’re going to alienate them. It’s not a matter of any objective truth or justice, these are just simple mechanics in democracy. You may be 100% right and still a loser.

That’s what I’m saying, and I don’t think it requires a huge intellectual effort to understand the point. You don’t have to agree with the people, but you need their votes.

All I told you is that Poles see parades as a thing against them because they have had bad experiences. Somehow feminists have as bad results, and they like parades as much. On the other hand, Polish women were granted equal rights without any parades at all – luckily for us our contemporary feminists weren’t yet born.

What the UK conservatives have to do with it? How many of them have reasons to link parades to communism? And how many churchgoers are there in the Church of England? 5%? Do you really think it likely that over 50% of Poles will stop going to Church if you keep blaming it? Or can you admit the possibility that the longer you blame it the lesser your chances will be?

I may be wrong in my assessment of the causes of your bad results, but that they are extremely bad is a fact. During the last 8 years people’s support for gay marriages fell from 24% to 14%, and their support for gay adoption fell from 8% to 5%. Their opposition grew from 69% against gay marriage to 75%, and from 84% against gay adoption to 87%.

http://kobiety-kobietom.com/naszasprawa/art.php?art=11

You can either look for causes, analyse them and improve your methods, or get offended at anyone who dares to say that something must be wrong, keep stomping your foot, and hope that you’ll succeed if you cry loud and long enough.

I didn’t say that gay activists claim that they are against the Polish nation, only that from the point of view of the majority of Poles it looks like they are. To which you accused me of being against gays and went on offending me, all the time claiming that you don’t offend anyone. Bravo! One would assume that with the overwhelmingly bad results you already have you’d care not to make even more enemies.

Pawel: “OMG I would LOVE to see Stalin in drag, Brezhnev and Honecker kissing and waving rainbow flags… effeminate miners and farmers holding hands:) Rosa Luxembours with moustache… That would be so fun to watch such a communist parade! :)”

You’re welcome:
http://sylwiaofwarsaw.wordpress.com/2009/07/27/men-kissing-in-polish-history/

[...] 27, 2009 I was arguing (unsuccessfuly) that Pride Parades aren’t the best idea for promoting gay community in…. It doesn’t matter that they work just fine in other countries. In Poland parades are linked [...]

Gay soldier on cover of British army magazine:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/how-the-forces-finally-learnt-to-take-pride-1762057.html

“Actually, I have a question of my own to our resident gay experts – why is it neccessary to say “gay & lesbian”?”

I tried to scan a very long discussion under this post to check if someone tried to reply. Sorry if the answer skipped my attention.

As a Polish native speaker I can reply, that the word “gay” is used in Polish strictly as a noun. A masculine noun. Therefore using it to describe a woman is unnatural (although sometimes something like that is done, mostly in case of names of professions, e.g. pani doktor – madame doctor). Polish speaking person would tend to create a feminine version of the word “gay” – but e.g “gejówka” lacks respect and “geini” sounds weird and sophisticated (which I state on the basis of my being Polish native). Using the word “lesbijka” (feminine noun) is easier.

In Polish “homosexual” is a more universal word, as it may have a form of an adjective (homoseksualny/a/ni/ne) and nouns (homoseksualista/tka).